nd filters and capturing water

[beth]

@astaroth some water photos and exif data and whether i used an nd filter.  if i can do it without the filter, i’m going to.

1/8 sec, f/11, iso 100

no nd filter

very foggy.

https://flic.kr/p/2nSMh3c

 

60 sec, f/9, iso 1000

no nd filter

shot after dark.

https://flic.kr/p/2prX7Db

 

the next two shots were from the same day and location.

1/4 sec, f/11, iso 100

10 stop nd filter.  i remember walking back up the steep path to get it from the car.

sunny with clouds, i grabbed this as a cloud went overhead.  other shots taken with the sun shining down resulted in blown highlights in the water.

https://flic.kr/p/2nRvNuY

https://flic.kr/p/2nQwELq

1/4 sec, f/11, iso 100

no nd filter

8pm in a fairly wooded area.

https://flic.kr/p/2mARp8c

 

10 sec, f/3.5, iso 1250

with a 10 stop nd filter.

an early attempt with an nd filter.  if i were to do this one over again i’d try it at 10 sec, f/11 and a lower iso.

https://flic.kr/p/2kqZKVP

 

30 sec, f/8, iso 800

early afternoon in the woods with the sun coming through at times.

another early attempt.  the shutter speed is too long on this one and i’ve lost some water detail.  doesn’t look too bad at web sizes, but at full size there’s large areas of fog instead of water.  look directly under the waterfall on the right.  if i were doing it over i’d try it without the nd filter (it may not have worked) at 10 seconds, f/11 and a lower iso.

https://flic.kr/p/2kqVr3h

[Astaroth]

Thanks a lot, @loki !

All of these are awesome pictures. I thought ND filters were much more necessary for all these shots during daylight, but now I see some of them are possible without any filters.

I like to emphasize the silk effect with longer exposures, but I’ve heard from several photographers about finding a middle point to not lose textures in the water. I have a lot to test regarding this.

I had my attempts some time ago. I used a Samyang 14mm and a heavy tripod a lot. This lens doesn’t allow threaded filters, so you need an adapter for square filters of 150mmx150mm. Besides, there are not too many areas like the ones you show close to where I live (and I don’t have a car, so it’s difficult for me to carry all the gear).

No filter, 140s, before sunrise

Square big stopper (notice the vignetting), 60s, midday, calm water

I hope to get a lightweight tripod and a circular big stopper for my new lens in August that I can always carry with me while hiking.

Thanks for your stunning examples!

[beth]

nice effect in the last one with the clouds moving.  it almost looks like what you’d expect at midday rather than being shot before sunrise.

i use a breakthrough nd filter.  the font element of some of my lenses is huge so i went with 82mm and some stepping rings to adapt to whatever i need.  most full frame camera systems can get away with 77mm and aps-c can go smaller.

[Astaroth]

My new lens is a Nikkor 16-35mm (77mm diameter). I’m using it on a full-frame camera (Nikon D810). One of the things that made me buy it (while I still have my 14mm) is the possibility of using threaded filters.

Going to locations with this and without a car is crazy:

[beth]

yea, i need my car.  around here you’ll get killed on a bus.  there isn’t a day that goes by that we don’t have a violent occurrence on a bus.  and there’s a lot of uber issues too.  but then again, cars are getting stolen/carjacked like crazy around here too, so that’s not even safe.

[Astaroth]

Really :(? I was referring to transportability, not safety.

Here (in Spain, specifically in Madrid), public transport is quite safe and not bad… but it often requires making several connections, long travel times, a lot of planning, and walking for a while with heavy gear if you want to get to beautiful locations… I’m getting too old for this xD… So I’m starting to think about the weight and mobility of my gear :p!

[beth]

i use a regular (non-photo related) backpack with lens wraps or padded inserts to protect my gear.  backpacks are more comfortable than photography bags, they carry the weight better and i can cram more in if i need to.  my favorite bag is a military bag with molle straps so i can strap a tripod on.  i recently found that my added drink holder can double as a very nice tripod carrier.

for tripods i use a lightweight carbon fiber manfrotto.  i also have a decade mini tripod base, which is just a steel plate that you can put a tripod head on.  last i saw they were no longer available, but platypod makes one too.

[Astaroth]

Thanks a lot for the tips :)!

[Kenneth Wong]

I’m really happy that @loki (nicely done BTW) started this thread, as ND filters are a great way to add another dimension to pictures and probably not a tool many people consider using.

However, I’d like to point out that water isn’t the only compositional element ND filters can be used to capture motion with:

As with most tools, what we can produce with them is really only limited by our imaginations.

I’ve found that it’s difficult to find truly color neutral ND filters, especially if they’re dense, where the intent is to block out six or more stops of light. One brand or model might be good in certain situations but perform poorly in others and vise-versa. My experience has been that this is true even with the more expensive premium brands and models.

One other thing that Beth subtly pointed out is that it’s important to understand how to use a tool not just so that you know how to apply it to your work, but also to know WHEN and WHEN NOT to use it.

[beth]

this was only water specific in reply to something that came up in the weekly challenge thread.  i didn’t want to bog down the challenge with examples.  i’ve done long exposures with clouds and moving plants.  works with fog machines too for toy photos.  and to erase moving people from crowded places.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

@kwongphotography Have you tested Lee filters? No colour cast is the claim they make.

[beth]

checkout breakthrough filters.  i haven’t noticed any color cast on it.  nisi is supposed to be good too.

[Kenneth Wong]

@loki Thanks but I’ve made a huge investment in the Haida M15 system a few years ago and decided to standardize on that line of products.

I had thought about Nisi prior to going with Haida and had traded some messages with Breakthrough (which is located in the SF Bay Area where I live) but I seem to recall that more people had positive things to say about the Haida line. I was impressed with Breakthrough’s customer service, but in the end decided to go with Haida because of their scratch and shockproof design. Another big plus was the magnetic design, which I don’t think Breakthrough had at the time I bought my filters.

[Patrick]

Haida solid choice 🙂

[Rob Eyers]

Two thumbs up for Breakthrough from me.

[beth]

@reyers have you done any extensive testing with breakthrough?  i haven’t done any color comparisons with and without the filter cause i’ve been really happy with it.  i think i might have to play around.

[Rob Eyers]

I wouldn’t say extensive but I have had a number of other brands over the years and all of them (some of them high profile) have caused me to look for something more neutral. All that stopped when I bought and tested Breakthrough. I would only add that colour accuracy is something I’ve dealt with since the days of NTSC (Never Twice The Same Colour) in the broadcast field and it’s a pet peeve of mine. For what that’s worth.

[beth]

good to know rob.  i always liked the end results of the filter, but never really tested it out to be sure.  i remember you saying before that you had a background in color correcting film.

[Kenneth Wong]

@admin-2 Yes, I’ve tried Lee, Formatt Hitech, Cokin and Haida, both glass and resin type filters. Pretty much all of the premium brands claim to be “neutral.”

As I mentioned above, some are neutral in certain situations and shift in others while other filters are the opposite. As far as I can tell, none of them are completely neutral in all types of light.

The worst was Formatt Hitech’s Firecrest filter, which not only shifted at times, but also produce soft images with my long lenses. I’d had high hopes for the Firecrest when I bought it, as I’d gotten good results with their 2-stop, 4-stop and 6-stop ND resin filters in daylight conditions, but that filter was a big disappointment. The real stink of it was that I had tried it out on a wide angle lens when I bought it but never thought to test it with any of my longer lenses, so by the time I discovered the problem it was too late to return the filter.

A few years ago I bought a set of 150mm Haida filters to use with my rectilinear lenses. In the tests I performed, they seem to work pretty well, but will shift in some situations. Unfortunately, my wildlife work has kept me so busy that I haven’t had the opportunity to take them into the field and try them out. I’m sure they’ll be fine, but regardless, I’m stuck with them, so as with all of my other “not-so-perfect” equipment, I’ll just make the best pictures I can with what I have.

[Federico Alegria]

thanks @loki for opening this space! a lot of gorgeous imagery around, and also some interesting facts on ND filters too

[beth]

any time federico.  i’ll pull my filter out and do some testing.  i’ve never really tested it, i was happy enough with the colors.  now i’m curious how much of a color cast there is.

[beth]

@astaroth @admin-2 @kwongphotography

edit: i’m going to keep testing this.  if you have suggestions on how to refine the test, let me know.  i might manual in a wb and shoot raw+jpg next time.

left is no filter.  right is with the breakthrough 10 stop filter.  shot raw, auto wb.  the camera chose 5100 color temp and +18 tint on the no filter version.  with the filter it was originally very yellow.  the camera chose a wb of 7200 and +26 tint.  i changed the wb on the filtered version to match the unfiltered version and came up with this:

[Astaroth]

I’m afraid I don’t have much to contribute to this conversation: I see both as very similar… but I’m colorblind xD…

[beth]

@astaroth they’re pretty much the same color.  if the two were different colors then there would be am unwanted color cast in the filter.  if the nd filter has a color cast it will make an image warmer or cooler than you want it to be.

the only issue i had with the nd filter was the image was softer.  but i’ve used this filter lots of times before with no softness issues so i’m pretty sure that i bumped the lens when i put the filter on.

[Kenneth Wong]

@loki Thanks for sharing.

I usually find it best to manually set the white balance when performing color cast comparisons, as adding the filter would follow basic scientific method of changing only one thing at a time. I also test under different types of light — not just direct sunlight, but also shade and cloudy conditions, as filters respond differently in different conditions.

Assuming that the color temperature of the light didn’t change, it appears there was some amount of shift, as the camera chose a different white balance. Under those conditions, the change wasn’t enough for us to notice, so in this situation, for all intent and purposes, there wasn’t any.

If I recall correctly, under direct sunlight conditions, the Haida NanoPro glass filters I have were neutral but shifted slightly red in the shade.

I believe that the Lee resin filters I have performed about the same as the Haida.

The Formatt-Hitech resin 6-stop ND filter was equally neutral in direct sunlight but shifted heavily cyan in the shade. Despite claiming to be “hyper-neutral,” their Firecrest 10-stop glass filter performed exactly same as their resin model. Unfortunately, I found that when I tried to use the Firecrest model on a telephoto lens, it produces completely soft images. I’m not sure why.

[beth]

if we’re doing the scientific method it should probably be done in a studio where you control every aspect of light and wb.  there’s also no difference between setting the wb in camera and setting it in post on a raw photo.  i chose auto wb since that’s what i generally shoot in.  i used the filter recently and didn’t notice any massive changes in wb and couldn’t remember anything like that in the past.  so i’m going to chalk that one up to a user/camera issue, esp. since the shot with the nd filter was out of focus and had a lot of blue in the image.

i recently shot in the shade at a waterfall and didn’t notice any difference in color between the nd and non nd shots.  i checked in post and auto wb selected almost the same temps for every photo.

[Kenneth Wong]

@loki The reason I don’t use AutoWB during a test is that the camera will correct any color cast that the filter might be causing. Like you, I prefer to visually confirm my color in addition to verifying with the metadata and manually setting the WB allows me to do that without applying any changes to the images.

While it’s impossible to guarantee that the lighting conditions haven’t changed from one moment to the next (and therefore could have some influence on an image), testing under real world conditions would be the only way to know for sure if the filter creates a color cast. Many of those conditions would be difficult — if not impossible — to simulate in the studio. I personally doubt that any filter can be made to be 100% neutral, 100% of the time. Light can vary so much.

I’m wondering why the camera detected a 2000K temperature shift in the first test. Since applying the settings from the first image to the seccond easily corrected the problem, it seems to indicate that the filter did not actually render a shift, but it still bothers me that it happened. The way I see it, a truly neutral filter wouldn’t trigger a WB change in the camera.

I’m glad that you’ve found a product which works well for you. Perhaps I should have gone with them, but since I made the investment in Haida and Lee filters, I’m going to stay with them for now, especially since I haven’t even had an occasion to use the filters yet.

Although I am big on using American-made products, I felt that their company was a bit pretentious and I personally have had enough of pretentious companies. For example, I won’t do any more business with Wandrd, which refused to post my honest review of their camera strap, leading potential buyers to believe that all of the feedback it had received was positive. On another occasion, I decided to try a Z-type tripod head. When I received the product it was broken, so I contacted the company and asked for a refund. If the product wouldn’t hold up in transit from their warehouse to my home, it certainly won’t under field conditions. Despite claiming to be an honorable and trustworthy company, they refused to give me a refund and sent me a replacement instead.

[beth]

nah, it’s easier just to edit the wb in post.  unless you have a very good reason not to, but so far i haven’t heard one from you.  and i’m not taking the time to manually set a wb in camera at a location where the body count rivals that of the clintons…

i still don’t know why it picked such a warm wb on that image other than it was out of focus and maybe had some bleed over from the blues onto the whites.  it hasn’t done it with any other images before or after, so i’m not too concerned.  again, i was rushing to leave, it’s not the safest area.

i don’t put too much stock in american made.  most american made products are made elsewhere and assembled in america.  seriously, i bought some precut wood in lowes the other day that had a sticker on it that said it came from australia.

[Kenneth Wong]

There are a growing number of American companies which manufacture their products (or are in the process of bringing manufacturing back) here in the U.S., Breakthrough being one of them.

This is what they say on their site:

We’re based here in the states alongside only one other US-based filter company, Singh-Ray, the makers of state-of-the-art Graduated Neutral Density filters.

In addition to being based in the USA we’re working on manufacturing a line of all-American products, including an upcoming filter 100% made in the state of New York.

Really Right Stuff is also made here in the U.S.

I’m not saying that you SHOULD set your WB prior to making your pictures. I was just explaining why I would do it for filter tests.

In any event, I always try to set the camera up to produce images which are as close to the final product as possible. It’s just my preference and often a time saver, since that’s one less thing I’ll need to do later.

I’m a bit confused about some of the things you’ve brought up many times in forums posts, — perhaps you’re just being sarcastic — but it sounds a lot like your job is terrible and the area you live is equally as bad. If that’s the case, why stay there?

I mean seriously, if it’s so dangerous that the miniscule amount of time to select one of the preset WB values on your camera would put your life in danger it doesn’t sound like it’s worth living there. Although I don’t know you well, you strike me as someone who’s very pragmatic and care-free.

[beth]

why leave?  everywhere else is just as bad.  you just don’t hear about it.  i’m sure there’s somewhere in everyone’s hometown where all of you go that if you were to mention it to a cop they’d give you sideways glance.

as for the job, well, nothing like seeing something you wrote end up in one of the top 3 stories on the bbc news website, their homepage world news, not just the us section.  i’m sure as a journalist, you’d understand that.  seriously though, i’d be stupid to walk away from a job that will let me retire with full benefits under the age of 40.

my point is you keep replying to say “set the wb manually,” but never give a real reason why.  it’s important enough to keep replying to, then give some substance to your statement.  setting it manually is exactly the same as setting it in post.  yes, get the exposure right in camera, but wb is one of those things that can go to auto and adjust it later if you’re shooting raw.

[Dahlia Ambrose]

Stunning photos Beth and it is great to learn how you shot the images under each lighting conditions. Thank you for sharing this 🙂

[Author]

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