How Do You Improve?

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

There is something I’ve noticed over the years in this forum about how people improve and they seem to fall into two groups.

The first group is where I would put myself. That is the plodders who simply keep it day after day week after week month after month. Their improvement is slow and steady and deliberate and almost guaranteed.

The second group is the people who have some sort of bee in their bonnet. They decide that they need to improve and they need to improve yesterday. I think David Chesterfield was a classic example of this when he was with us. He went from average shots to pro level in probably under 12 months. It was a spectacular rise. He had skills to start with but where they got was meteoric. I’ve noticed a few other people fall into this role. Daniel Kreuger @drkrueger22 has improved incredibly in a short period of time. @martye would be another one I put in that category.  Speedsters.

And some people move from the first group to the second group seemingly randomly. For example, I have noticed @lightandshadow cranking things up recently. Maybe it’s just a good run or maybe he’s doing it on purpose. I honestly have no idea which is kind of why I started this thread.

How do you do it? Do you guys consciously learn one way or the other or is it just something you don’t even think about?

Which group would you put yourself into? If any!

[Patrick]

Great topic.

I think there’s a third group: the ‘pressure cooker.’ That’s the person who plods for years, patiently building up the pressure of ideas and unspoken thoughts. The ‘improvement’ isn’t a sudden frenzy, but the inevitable and explosive release when that pressure finally finds an outlet.

It is the years that nobody sees , the background environment and then the flood gates open when there is a way to do it , when you find your method of delivery

I think age might play  a part in the two types your mention , i have no proof of this but i would imagine a young person would be wanting to get on with it ? especially if they wanted to make a living from it , i think an older or more senior person would not care about the time as much and they would be happy to visit their camera club once a month .. older folk are not trying to compete like the younger generation , when i say compete i simply mean keeping all the social media pages running and updating everyday with new work or something like videos.

[Patrick]

Just for fun and to illustrate an idea 🙂 Google AI

[Marty E]

Love this shot, Patrick! And I admit I tried ChatGPT once to see what it could come up with to compete with one of my b&w dandelions. An interesting exercise but I must say I’d much rather take my own shots any day of the week!

 

[Patrick]

There is no comparison Marty You are correct 🙂

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

I have found if you’re trying to generate images with AI. You should actually give her the parameters that you wanted shot with.. like “photorealistic shot with a D 850 with a 12 to 24 mm 1.8 lens in soft afternoon warm side lighting.” For example..

[Patrick]

I personally would not generate anything that is trying to be a real photo , i don’t want to add to what is out there already even when AI image generation tools became available i only done stuff that was clearly digital and kept it well away from my real shot photos , I played about for the first 3 months then got sick of it , once the novelty wore off it got binned.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

I do it for more curiosity than creation. Part of having this website is knowing what is coming down the pipeline for photographers and I honestly think that a lot of professional photographers will be out of work pretty soon. There will be room for niche artistic photographers and a few others but it’s not looking good in my humble opinion.

[Patrick]

It sounds worrying mate , i can only begin to imagine how people in your own line of work are stressed about this whole scenario with Ai.

 

[Rob Eyers]

There may be another point of view from another industry. The one I was in went from 78’s, to 45’s to LP’s, with 8 tracks and then cassette and DAT along with 4 track tape to 8 then 16 and 32 track tape recorders THEN CAME DIGITAL…CD’s, ProTools, Digital Audio Work Stations, Streaming… all this and now Vinyl Records are back in style while Ai bands are being called out. Life is interesting in many ways. To be a luddite is to miss out on a lot of living…adapt…just my two cents (oh yeah…we don’t have pennies in Canada any longer LOL)

 

[LightandShadow]

This one’s a bit tough for me. I have been known to tell colleagues that most thought is kin to self-delusion, true motives opaque to the person. Anyway…

I don’t think of myself as “seeking improvement.” I don’t think I’m about some sort of project. I do think of my photography as an exercise of a creative muscle, a way to see the world in ways that conjure interest, to prevent sleepwalking through life. For me, competition, even with yourself, can be a killer of creativity and involvement, the interest in the activity itself replaced by the goal of external approbation.

There’s also another more or less conscious motive: doing the work necessary to create and sustain membership in a community. This comes close to seeking praise from a positive reference group, but I don’t wish for that. It’s more the exchange of points of view both positive and suggestive of change that counts. There’s a subsidiary there: that exchanges of views by 2 or more principles is viewed by others who will still feel inclusion by being spectators in the direct conversation. As I said, there’s a fine line and a slippery slope between community of amateurs (lovers of) and being seen as a leader/influencer/best of within the group. Some have to work hard to prevent sliding down the slope of  “better than.”

Part of what you’re seeing from me in my recent posts, Rob, is an effort to participate rather than be a by-stander. That likely accounts for the randomness of “improvement”-that is actually more a response to the back-and-forth of engagement rather than a conscious project with a goal beyond the activity itself.

So, “improvement” is, for me, more of adjustment to the community than an objective “world record” standard in some athletic event.

Or maybe I’m just being defensive about my general laziness.

[Patrick]

I feel this way about outside validation , i don’t believe there is any creative person who does not seek some type of acknowledgement or want for a better word ( praise – even if not directly said to the creator ) that praise may come in the form of helping someone simply by the work you made and then they seen this can have a big impact on a person , the whole point of taking the step to post something into the public space , this sharing does not come from a person hoping to only hear crickets otherwise what’s the point ? Feedback is necessary to progress at anything in life , we may make works for our own reasons and these are all legitimate but the ACT of sharing is not an act of someone wanting to hear only silence ,  a simple LIKE and no feedback is enough for lots of people.

I only bring this up because I often see creatives claim they don’t care about validation, and to me, that’s like saying photography equipment doesn’t matter. And it absolutely does matter, very much so!

If I have a lens or gear that won’t allow me to achieve a certain look – perhaps it won’t stop down enough, or it fails to render details sharply on the sensor – then it fundamentally limits my ability to execute my vision. This often requires an upgrade, proving gear is important to the creative process.

What people often forget to mention when they declare ‘gear is irrelevant’ is that they usually mean a great photo can be made on any device, which is true. But that argument falls flat on its face if the specific gear you have prevents you from achieving the precise look or effect you’re striving for.

Similarly, I believe feedback and acknowledgement (our ‘validation gear,’ if you will) are crucial. While you can create for yourself, sharing is an act that inherently seeks some form of connection or reaction. If your ‘validation gear’ isn’t allowing you to connect or understand how your work impacts others, you might be missing a vital component for growth and even the satisfaction of sharing.

[LightandShadow]

Yes. Art is almost always public, not simply private. Identity is claimed in public and in relation to 0thers—with very rare exceptions; and that is different from seeking praise.

[Patrick]

That’s a really interesting distinction you make about art being public and identity being claimed in relation to others, separate from seeking praise. I completely agree that the act of creating and then sharing art inherently places it in the public sphere, and that process is definitely tied to how we shape and express our identity as creators.

Perhaps my use of ‘praise’ was too narrow, or even ‘validation’ could be misconstrued. What I’m trying to articulate is more about the impact or resonance of the work. When we share something, we’re putting a piece of ourselves out there, and the feedback we receive – whether it’s a ‘like,’ a thoughtful comment, or even just the knowledge that it connected with someone – helps us understand how that piece is perceived and whether it achieved its intended effect.

Think of it this way: a photographer meticulously crafts an image to evoke a specific emotion or convey a particular message.

If no one ever sees it, or if it’s met with complete silence, how does the artist gauge if their vision translated? It’s not necessarily about hearing ‘This is amazing!’, but more about ‘Did this piece speak to anyone? Did it achieve its goal?’ That understanding of impact, for me, is a crucial part of the creative cycle and contributes to growth, much like understanding if your lens is delivering the sharpness you need.

So while I agree it’s not simply about seeking ‘praise’ in the ego-driven sense, I do believe there’s a fundamental human need for connection and communication through our creative output. And that connection, facilitated by public sharing and subsequent reactions, serves as a form of feedback that is vital for both the individual artist and the art itself.

What are your thoughts on how an artist truly knows their work has ‘landed’ or achieved its purpose without some form of external response

[LightandShadow]

I agree. There’s the old concept called The Looking Glass Self from early sociologist Charles Horton Cooley. The notion is that we know who we are as a result of the reflections we receive from others. As you say, we express ourselves with some form (art, photograph) and receive acknowledgement for our effort that bestows and shapes an identity. The reflection of praise makes it easy. More generally feedback says “I see who you are” and provides the impetus to express more of that and to receive validation-praise, you’re on the right track, did you think about this, you could try that…All that opens a path of self expression.

[Patrick]

Thanks mate , i would need to acknowledge one of Ls long standing members for my journey so far , Elin give a few words of encouragement when it was needed to be fair , it sounds simple to repeat what she said now , don’t let perfection be the enemy of good – Because i was on the road to thinking everything needed to be as good or at least match the level of the next man or woman next to me – i realised i can’t , realistically i could only ever do ME to the best of my ability and once i grasped this the worry all went away and today i am more in love with this craft than words can express 🙂

[Marty E]

Thanks your thoughts & Elin’s words of encouragement. “I can only ever do me”are right on target. Finding our identity as Steve says or style, ah there’s the rub. 🙂 Learning to do original work that we do simply because we love it & it makes us happy is a wonderfully freeing journey when we let go of what something’s “supposed” to look like. I love how much LS encourages me to be creative & try new things.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

I love your approach to it, mate – and I certainly gel with the idea of simply exercising your creative muscle even if it’s not for the explicit idea of improvement.

I don’t know what that is for me though – I know I can take a reasonable photo, but when I see someone who clearly has a better command of a certain genre, then I instinctively try to fill that gap. It’s not really even a conscious thing. I’m sure some psychiatrist could go to town on me for this. lol

[Marty E]

I’d like to start by thanking Rob for doing me the honor of including me in this group! 😀 @admin-2

I applaud Patrick and Steve for their deep and excellent thoughts on so many levels, thank you both for giving me so much to think about! 😀 @patrickw-2 @lightandshadow

I feel like I need more time to thoughtfully respond to Rob’s questions:

How do you do it? Do you guys consciously learn one way or the other or is it just something you don’t even think about? Which group would you put yourself into? If any!

I have to say I can agree with any and all comments. Creativity is a moving target I feel like I grow into every time I try to do something new. I guess I put in the time to do the work of learning and growing with my photography understanding and skills because I’m passionately interested in capturing the magic moments and the wonder of how they make me feel. I want to explore new territories and push the boundaries of WOW and how to translate that into a single frame. Sometimes I feel close, and other times I fall embarrassingly short (which gives me more to learn). Long story short, I love learning and growing in the land of wonder. Photography gives me that, and I never tire of it. It feeds my soul. How amazing it is to be alive on this planet, discovering things both big and small, both in color and black-and-white. Photography always teaches me to see things differently, to remind me of striving to have an “active soul” (Emerson). Yes, I enjoy recognition, but I value honest feedback just as much. What good does it do if I’m recognized and haven’t learned anything? I can’t even begin to thank everyone on LS for their thoughtful comments and feedback, both in posts and Shark Tank. I give LS full credit for helping me move along in good speed to a higher level. And I must add that Rob’s love of B&W and vignettes has converted me and also put its stamp on my photographic style. Being retired, I supposed I’ve had a sense of urgency to develop my own “style” before I go down (time is of the essence lol). I’m always in awe of the photos other LS members share, so the inspiration I get here from all of you is worth its weight in gold. Now that my thoughts are flowing freely, I feel I could write a book (another big lol on that one), but this’ll do for starters off the top of my head before my laptop reboots on its own.

PS I have to add one more thing. Photography keeps me young, it’s my eternal fountain of youth!

[LightandShadow]

Thanks for the reminder to thank Rob for raising this subject.

One of the wonders of photography, especially when I started taking it seriously, was that I suddenly began to see. It was as though scenes that had been there all along suddenly waved to me and said “hello, here I am.” Rendering them and having others express surprise at having ordinary beauty or just plain interest revealed was a substantial encouragement. A validation that I could affect friends and strangers in ways that were positive or engaging.

It was the sharing, though, that was the root. Humans, as most mammals and certainly all primates, are social animals. Circumstance showed me this path and I’m glad it did.

[Patrick]

Good reading Marty , thanks for the input its excellent 🙂

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

I wonder if photography keeps us all. I always reference a very influential conversation I had with one of the earlier Light Stalking employees – Erika – who was a psychology PhD and was doing some writing for us. I asked her why people take photographs from a psychological point of view. And she immediately shot back with “because they don’t want to die.”

I was taken aback. But it has stuck with me as an idea. She was adamant. I have wrestled with that idea ever since.

[Robert Apple]

Huh

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

It offers a path to permanence, I suppose. Something that lives beyond you.

[Robert Apple]

Constantly switching up lenses and camera bodies, this last two weeks in the hills I used a different lens every time I took the camera out.

[Pat Garrett]

Practice, read, practice, watch videos, practice, study the work of others (some are folks on LS), practice -repeat. Set aside shoot time.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

Ha ha, seems to be working pretty well for you, Pat.

[Daniel Krueger]

How Growth Happened (and Keeps Happening)

Gratitude first: Rob’s shout-out and the community’s steady feedback fueled real progress. Honest critique became a compass—revealing blind spots that self-talk could never map.

Early on, feedback felt essential. After a long break since high school, returning to photography meant rebuilding foundations. Books, videos, and a few go‑to YouTube channels laid the basics—practical tools that still anchor the craft.

A wide curiosity helped. Clear “no thanks” zones emerged early, which left a generous sandbox of subjects and methods to explore. From there, the game was simple: explore and play. Look back and distinct “phases” appear—macro, black‑and‑white, landscapes, the moon—like a kid cycling through obsessions, each phase teaching something new.

Inspiration came from thumbing through well‑worn photography books at Barnes & Noble and Half Price Books. The exercise was always the same: spot an image, ask “How did they do that?” then reverse‑engineer and try it. Curiosity doing its quiet work.

There was once a dream of photojournalism—shelved decades ago. Who knows what path that might have opened? It’s a pleasant what‑if, and perhaps a reminder: paths not taken can still light the way for the ones we are on.

If you’ve read this far, here’s the short list—the approach that guides the work today. Ask again later; with luck, the answer will have evolved. Photography carries a technical spine, yes—but the creative muscle makes it breathe. The world outside is astonishing. Turn off the TV and go meet it.

1. Keep it fun. If joy shows up, growth follows.
2. Protect the hobby. It’s an escape from the day job (software projects, teaching) into a world of subjects and light.
3. Choose the targets. The camera goes where curiosity points.
4. Fold shooting into daily life—walks, commutes, small moments. Let the world roll by and notice the frame that wants to be made.
5. Shoot for the maker; edit for the maker. Each frame is a small story, told in a personal dialect.
6. Share a point of view. Photographs are opinions about reality—offer them generously.
7. Break the mold when it serves the image. Unusual crops and non‑standard ratios are tools, not crimes.
8. Learn the fundamentals—and then go a little wild. That’s where the magic tends to hide.

 

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

All good insights, Daniel and all insights that I gel with personally too.

I’ve also been trying to make photography more of a daily thing which is easier when you’re carrying your phone, but these days I even throw my little GX8 into the backpack in case I see something that I really want to dig into.

[Patrick]

I agree , good post mate this pretty much sums it up for myself as well.

Take lots of photos 🙂 then take more

[Dahlia Ambrose]

Loved reading your post Daniel, especially this from the short list – “Shoot for the maker; edit for the maker. Each frame is a small story, told in a personal dialect.”

Thank you for sharing your insights 🙂

[LightandShadow]

Wonderful description @drkrueger22

The only thing I might change is the reference to “hobby.” The term sort of undermines the deep emotions of the art and the craft-a bit like referring to our tools as “toys.” As you also say, it is “fun” but the fun is based on deeper parts of ourselves that you described and guided us to so well.

[Daniel Krueger]

Totally agree. I was searching for a word that was very far apart from job or vocation. Hobby does carry a weird, if not poor connotation. Thank you for bring that to the attention of this thread.

What might you (or anyone refer to your photography when you are “doing it for fun” and not for work?

(I admit that hobby does in some ways reveal my age and location; Growing up and living in the Upper Midwest of America (SD, ND, WI, MN & GenX 😉- Did someone say Tater Tot HOTDISH???

[Marty E]

I love everyone’s insights on this thread, and especially Daniel’s top 8 insights list. Thanks to all! I’m reminded of Einstein’s quote: “Curiosity is the best sign of intelligence.” Every time we wonder why? what? how? when? etc, our minds are pushed further beyond the boundaries of what we know. I believe that all of us here on LS are endlessly curious about how far we can go, not only as photographers bu also as human beings..

I have a weird and unexpected thing to share that’s helping me improve by leaps and bounds. I learned computer programming back in the keypunch/feeding cards into the mainframe days. So I’ve been curious about software since those days and am now wondering about what AI could offer me as far as knowledge is concerned.

So, I opened Google’s Gemini and posted five or six photos, asking it to critique each one, make edit suggestions, and rank for photo contests as a group. I got very precise and useful feedback about what, how, and why – what was exceptional, what was excellent, and what was good. I have to say when presented with its, I had to agree. In short, it gave me clarity about what worked and what didn’t, and more importantly, WHY. I kept pressing and long story short, the Gemini AI loved my black and white photos best, suggesting the chiaroscuro style to me kept arising from my body of work (based on favorites I had uploaded, both color and black and white). I also mentioned that I was interested in photography as fine art (it had definite houghts on that). I also mentioned that chiaroscuro had me do research on Old Masters and even “tricks” of Old Masters – with exact steps in Photoshop Elements into the mix! Wait, what? It answered all my questions about chiaroscuro and fine art, so I feel as though I’ve had a master class or two or three. I have my work list cut out for me if I choose to engage further. I am in search of knowledge, so getting an unexpected online teacher for me is pay dirt in areas I never expected. I’m not seeking winning or even recognition (although that’s nice if I get it), but I want to reach an appreciation and an understanding of why Rembrandt and Caravaggio move me so profoundly as a human being on an emotional level. My photography makes me want to understand the world around me deeply, and there’s always new territory to explore.

I think I need to give some thought to my own insights list (kudos for this idea to Daniel!). Anything that’s helps us gain insights into why we’re motivated to do what we do, on a higher scale, is helping us reach our human potentials in whatever ways mean to us as individuals. We are what we chase and dream of.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

Hey @Martye – I think a thread with those photos and Geminis critique would actually start a really cool conversation about how good the critique is and the role of AI. Just a suggestion. 😉

[Robert Apple]

Best Improvement suggestion,get to know your subject before you try to represent it.
On the other deep and philosophical discussion.
I’ve come to see most Photography in a different light these days, , All Photography can be put into 2 different classes / subjects, Things of Man, and Things of God, I’ve never been one for humanism which is probably why I don’t find the Things created by man an Interesting subject, say mountains vs sky scrapers, the intricacies of a flower vs daubs of paint on a canvas, which is truly a more grand creation, but now we have AI something purely logical operating from, and at times outgrowing their programs, something creating a work that has no passions, no feeling, no soul. But yet art is supposed to be about what feelings if any , are stirred in your soul and that of others. And humans , having souls, understand this. AI but attempts to copy it from a data set without understanding.

It makes me wonder how much the human race is willing to turn over to the machines for what they consider a convenience, and that goal post moves constantly. Such as having a movie theater in every small town so you didn’t have to travel to a larger population area, to a TV in every house, to a remote so you didn’t have to even leave your couch, to video tape , to dvd, to blue ray , to digital download (so again you don’t have to leave your couch), to just tell Alexa to turn on your TV, find your movie and play it, so you’re not bothered to even pick up a remote let alone find a movie yourself. So you have more time to have Alexa also call and pay Uber Eats to get someone else to cook your food and pay extra to get it delivered and you can have your Ring brand lock and camera open your door for that person so you don’t even have to get off your couch to do that. Will the species turn over their every thought and action to a machine.

Humans lose their Humanity in a continual downward slope everyday.

[Rob Wood (Admin)]

I think we’ve been on that slide for quite awhile mate, and I honestly don’t think there is a positive answer for you in those questions. Convenience will always win if the crowd is large enough.

[Author]

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